This world is not our "HOME"
Submitted by Charlene Jones on Sun, 2006-09-03 19:28.
This world in not our "HOME". It never was and it never will be. Only after we have examined the true nature of who-what we really are, can we discover our true "SELF". What we thought all our lives was our true "SELF" was just an illusion, a massive world wide "delusion". In the purest physical sense of "SELF" we are just 3 pounds of grey hamburger meat call our "BRAIN". That is all we really are and to quote the great 20th century guru "Elmer Fudd", "Ba Dee, Ba Dee, Ba Dee, That's all folks". Who we all thought we "really" were and are is found inside this hamburger meat we call "ME". Spend one day meditating on this and see who or what you truly find inside your "MIND". The great but virtually unknown (now dead) master - Gesar Kusali Rinpoche wrote in his former life the following teaching. I spend all day looking for
"MYSELF"
But everywhere I looked I couldn't
find "MYSELF"
How can I exist without
"MYSELF"
Can I exist without
"MYSELF"
I can exist without
"MYSELF"
"Now, Now I exist without
"MYSELF"
Just spend one day on this and tell me what or who you truly found inside "YOU"
going home
Another side of this coin might be, Where am I when I'm not really here? and I do that a lot. Tune out. Sleepwalk through work, driving, folding laundry, reading, meditation or even dropping off to sleep. These are times that make it a bit easy to say "there is no self". Eyes read the page but I can't for the life of me recall any content. Where was "I"?
We chastize ourselves for these moments. We tell ourselves to concentrate. Be present. Maybe they are moments...seconds...of going home? Maybe the question to ask is not "where am I", but "How can I lose this sucker?".
I want to know more about "home". What made us leave it? It's the dakini thing, isn't it? Or Charlene's comment on compounded formations. Home is something uncompounded?
Catherine
Harold's Comments
You have to ask yourself this compound question:
1)are we human beings having spiritual experiences
or 2) are we spiritual beings having human experiences or 3) are we spiritual beings DREAMING human experiences?
To awaken is to awaken from the sleep of ignorance and the illusionary dream of this entire world.
Vajragarbha was a direct student of the Buddha. Vajragarbha taught "only when all manifestations have been negated will the clear light truly dawn.
Only when all attachments have been blasted away, can we see what lies BEHIND ILLUSION. Only when all your experiences all your memories and only when YOU become utterly irrelevant can we know WHAT we really are".
To be Enlightened is to be see the truth of SAMSARA and to see the truth of cyclical existence. In the final fight scene in the movie the Matrix, Agent Smith says to Neo; "Thank you for showing me the PURPOSE of life (Samsara). The purpose of life is its END." So Ms. Sword now I ask you again "Is this world our REAL HOME?"
some sort of being
"Are we spiritual beings dreaming human experience"? I feel like this is one way of negating all manifestations and this will truly clear the way. It sounds like a fun game to entertain even if I choose not to committ to that one concept as being the whole truth.
I am toying with the idea that we are multi-dimensional beings and that we are this simultaneously. BUT we are stuck in the physical realm, the realm of "manifestations". To entertain the thought that we are spiritual beings (electrical, energy, non-form beings) dreaming human experience is a very helpful exercise. Is this what is behind the projectionists? A dreamer?
Is the human experience-dream a coded message system for the spiritual being in the same way that night dreams contain information for the human experience? If so, I could come to the conclusion that the state of the spiritual being(s) is in pretty rough shape based on the chaos and imbalance of the manifestations.
Also, this human being has attachments to ideas, such as who I am, this is my job, the world is round, all of which are very difficult to break away from. Are you suggesting that spirtual beings have an attachment which they find difficult to break away from and that the manifestation dream is a de-coder for them?
Ouch. I think I've fallen off the teeter-totter and hurt my brain.
Related questions: Can a human being be a human being without the dream realm? Does the reflection in the mirror also believe that it has a conciousness?
reply from Harold
If we are in fact spiritual beings DREAMING human experiences what is the reason that we can't awaken . If we are the projectionist and what we project into this dream like world or movie are emotions and thoughts, who is sitting in the audience of our movie-theatre mind? Is the projectionist asleep as is your character on the movie screen? It is purpose that created the projectionist and the projected and without purpose there would be no theatre or projectionist or projected or dreamer. Catherine, what is the purpose of all this.
getting lost in the "other" world
For every awakened human being is there a corresponding number of awakened spiritual beings? Are spiritual beings even "individual"? Or perhaps more hive-like or borg-like; connected like the spider web image you described or like lightening through water. I believe that lightening travels in water so easiely because molecules are connected in many directions at once. Great conductor.
Spiritual beings could be like this - interconnected and perhaps instantaneous. By this I mean that anything in the spiritual realm is like a dew drop on the web, or an electrical spark in water - immediately know or felt in the entire. If so, than this would mean in the spiritual realm they are either all asleep or all awake.
If all asleep and we humans are their dreams it may be that they will never awaken:) But I have doubts with this scenero. I find it difficult to believe that an inter-connected existence would dream such complicated ideas as our human realm. Where would the ideas (especially of individuals) arise from?
If all are awake on the other hand, I can see a powerful motivation for such an existance to create and play with our realm. Boredom. Or loneliness. If I pretend to be a spiritual existence - and it must be an intelligent existence - then I can conceive of a great boredom setting in. Maybe it's even paired with a burning curiousity. "Gee, everything is always the same. What is the same? What if something could be different. what is different? How different could I make it? What kind of 'Dark City' could I build?"
What if that little thought experiment went wrong and suddenly I found I couldn't put my toys away? I've made the toys "real" and now I can't control them. I can only hope to teach them how to come "home" to the spiritual realm of all connectedness. Some have learned a few tricks and are on the stage or screen. The audience are other senient beings trying to learn from the models on the screen. Those on the screen may not be able to see the projectionist (yet) but at least they have a good view of the light.
Light, travelling through the dark like lightening in water. Somehow, humans need to walk in/on the light, be absorbed by the light.
It could happen that way. Maybe. Boredom. Or loneliness.
Maybe I'm just lost here in many ways.
Harold's Comments
If we spiritual beings are in fact asleep and are dreaming human experiences did we voluntarily fall asleep? The answer may in fact be that we were put into a coma-like sleep since beginningless time. If this world was pulled over our eyes to blind us from the truth, what is that truth? Are we slaves, were you Catherine born into bondage, born into a prison you can not see, smell, taste or touch, a prison for your "REAL MIND". If we are as an example all "apples" where is the original mother tree that we all come (emanate) from. If we are not the actual ones sitting in the audience, who is and why are they enjoying this truly cruel movie that we all appear in. Can that which is "PERFECT" create that which is "IMPERFECT" and can that which is "IMPERFECT" create that which is "PERFECT". I am imperfect. What created me perfection or imperfection?
really getting lost
I definitely need more time to sit with this but lots of questions arise for me.
Are the senses (seeing, hearing, touching) the bars of this bondage, the prison?
Your audience suggestion seems to hint at a new perspective - that the audience may be close to the "source" or "purpose" of the whole film.
Do we live in this day world in a perfect situation? My human judgement may think not, but really, what's my beef? The system is working and progressing. Who am I to judge? So maybe it's perfect but I still say it's perfect because there is suffering.
What is the place of no duality? I think this loops me back to what is the source. I'm trying to figure out if there is such a "place" or "state" where there is no duality, why or how would the concept arise at all.
I'm Stuck. Need a push.
Still lost?
When you examine the make up of the our physical body what do you find. You will discover that we are molecules and inside them are atoms and inside them are electrons,protons and neutrons and inside them are quarkes. So what are you, a random collection of subatomic particles, is that it, is that all we are. What about the "I" this "Self" we all think we are. Where does it fit in with all these's particles.
coming out of the dark?
Random. Good question. Like iron filings drawn to a magnet are our subatomic particles drawn into this form? Is conciousness the "magnet"? But this is not random, even for a magnet. It suggests a law of order of some sort.
If I have one large magnet and drop iron filings around, there would appear various patterns, some perhaps looking like "individual" patterns separate from others. Conciousness is like one large magnet - human forms are all the 'patterns of distribution', causing us to believe we are individuals. Really, if we take away the quarks, protons, neutrons, etc. then the "I" of this form is the same "I" of all the other supposedly individual forms.
A drop of wisdom from a now frozen ocean of wisdom?
If we are each drops of widom from an ocean of wisdom,is this ocean now frozen for most of us. Are awakened being the very few unfrozen drops of wisdom? We possess only one mind (consiousness) which is both very coarse and very subtle at the same time. Our mind when it is coarse is our day to day samsaric human mind. When it is subtle it is our awakened mind. The problem is that this subtle mind has been over-rided by billions of years of conditioning. We live in a realm were everyone believes this brain washed mind is our one and only true mind(everyone believing the same dream and reinforcing this believe into everyone else). We are both the victim and the perpetrator. Is this world really our home, is this body really our body? The only difference between an awakened being and a samsaric being is what? One remembers and the other has forgotten who, what they really are.
thawing
Why are we in this body at all? Why do you suggest "frozen" body of wisdom? Do we need ice chippers? Burning heat? This is all **doing** something. What if it's like being in the karmic wave story. We spend so much time thrashing about trying to get to the shore which is where we 'believe' we belong. Yet life came from the ocean. Water is a good conductor. Mind is a good conductor. What if the trick is to be still? Know that it's all connected molecule to molecule. Is that not a subtle idea? Stop thrashing and float.
How does it help me(and others) in a samsaric state to remember that I am more subtle conciousness? It would really help to have some ideas as to how we got into this samsara. Any hints? Was it such a wise step out of that ocean of wisdom?
Frozen. Is this a pointer to dream language? Feelings as a key which we don't know how to use?
The "Fall"
A quote from Lama Gesar Kusali; Firery the dakas and dakinis fell from the sky - Thundering they crashed to this earth below - When they awoke, none of them not a single one of them could remember who, what they were - while they were unconsiously they were all "gifted" - they were given gifts of illusionary male and female bodies , they were given egos and memories and experiences - It is said that it made them easier to control - Slowly over countless time a few began to remember who, what they "really" were. The first was siddharta - the buddha - the "AWAKEN ONE". This world is not our home and until you are completely freed from the delusion that your body validates your existence the curse of cyclical existence will be yours Ms. Sword it will be indeed yours to suffer.
The "Fall"
A quote from Lama Gesar Kusali; Firery the dakas and dakinis fell from the sky - Thundering they crashed to this earth below - When they awoke, none of them not a single one of them could remember who, what they were - while they were unconsiously they were all "gifted" - they were given gifts of illusionary male and female bodies , they were given egos and memories and experiences - It is said that it made them easier to control - Slowly over countless time a few began to remember who, what they "really" were. The first was siddharta - the buddha - the "AWAKEN ONE". This world is not our home and until you are completely freed from the delusion that your body validates your existence the curse of cyclical existence will be yours Ms. Sword it will be indeed yours to suffer.
tiny glimpse
Enlightenment is not escape but realization. Realization is not realease. How obvious or simple is it? What I "know", or think I know, or believe I understand is:
Yep. Life sucks. It is insane.
I wake up (actually set up a situation that forces me to get up - clock radio, work schedule)
Then I force or dictate that my body will eat and get out the door by a certain time.
Work work work. Resist the urge to slap many unconcious beings. After all, I am one. Love one another as I would myself, so to speak.
Get tired. Work more.
Finally go home (little 'h').
Work to prepare food and eat. House demands. Sleep so I can repeat the same suffering the next day and the next day and the next.....
I once believed the necessity of this but now question the insanity. I believe I genuinely see this insanity. Is this a realization? A flash of light in the cave? Is this a nanosecond of enlightenment? Can realization be that obvious?
I also know that even if it is a small realization it's not a release. I am not freed from the overall delusion because I still must be a victim of my conditioning. Can that ever change while in a physical body? I don't think so. Form = victimization?
Besides. The light keeps flicking off for long periods of time.
You are now beginning to see the insanity!!!
Have you every just stood there Ms. Sword and stared at it, this beauty it's genius. Billions of people just living out their lives oblivious. (Agent Smith to Morpheus) You as now starting to see the insanity of the Matrix, of Samsara itself. Remember- How can I help you to escape the prison your in if you don't even know your in a prison. First I must show you the prison and then you must decide if you want to escape from it. If you do I can show you how but you must choose either the blue pill or the red pill. True realization (ultimate enlightment) is keeping that light on FOREVER. Keeping it on from one lifetime to the next and the next etc..
This World is Our Temporary home
Interesting dialogue between Harold and Catherine.
I'm jumping in, perhaps just for one comment.
The view that a single creator made all this, brought the Matrix into being, reflects a Judeo-Christian belief that Tibetan Buddhists do not really hold. The view on God, or a single creator, according to the Dalai Lama is "Don't know."
In the west that's called agnostic: not an atheist who firmly believes no single creator exists, and not a believer in a single creator.
One problem with a monolithic, single creator view is exactly the problem you are throwing back and forth: is it this or is it that? If a single creator began the whole wonderful world (for it truly is a magical place of immense and amazing arisings and passings away) and this single creator is evil, negative, perverse, cruel ( chose your adjective)
then we are all duped.
What about love? What about joy? What about understanding? The human power to create beauty and harmony without and within? The magnificent power of evolution?
The problem with a single creator is just that: single. Single leads to duality, because it separates itself from the very beginning.
If the single creator is positive, good, happy, loving, a just and caring creator, then we have the same problem, different side.
Deciding this issue is actually a distraction, whether you decide the creator is evil or good.
Another way to examine this is to put aside the question of whether or not a single creator is evil or good and look at what is.
What is created.
What is created is both good and evil. We are both good and evil. Everything which comes into existence is both good and evil.
Nothing is beyond this relativity in this very relative world.
The senses are both "Deva" (a Pali word meaning "shining light") and the source of so much horrible conflict (see world news). Catherine your sense of every day may unfold into more beauty and harmony for you if you understanding the senses are both Deva and full of deception.
One way to help with this is to keep the mind and the senses lined up. Keep your mind in what the senses are doing. When you walk, walk with your senses.When you breathe, breathe.
Practice being with your senses.
This helps to slow down the mind. A difficulty which arises quite naturally from the discussion of whether or not a prime creator is good or evil, is the sequence of logic.
You are both Harold and Catherine trying to solve universal mysteries using the human tool of logic.
I believe one of the fundamentals of our time is we are evolving way beyond logic at a rapid pace.
Logic, or Aristotelian syllogisms, was an amazing and exciting way for humans to examine the world, starting with Aristotle.
Like all developments in human consciousness it has served its purpose and now is being grown beyond.
Catherine you are struggling to decide either/or in a logical way, while the feminine energy of your being knows in its wisdom no decision is necessary and all decisions of this kind are silly.
That wisdom is at odds with your very fine mental powers, which keep knocking against the door of logic.
It's the wrong door!
Have fun. Enjoy yourself. No, I really mean it!
More fun
OK. So I've seen my first glimpse of a bar on my prison. I want another flip of the light switch. A look at another bar. Yes, I know too that I'm depending way too much on my brain to "logic" my way to an aswer. It's the tool I am most familiar with (for the moment). So now I have two questions and I'm having trouble formulating them.
Feminine, energy, and wisdom. Is this the view I'd experience if I could look beyond the bars?
Having seen one bar, (oh dang, I just gotta ask), what's another bar look like?
Playful thought. What if, every time the light flashes on, I see a bar, but I'm actually standing **outside** the prison all along. Being human and pessimistic, I assume that I must be in a prison and need to escape. Maybe there's no prison at all.
Ok. So that's 3 questions but I'm still having fun. Really.